Detectives

QUESTION: Now, you testified about 24 meetings with the government, correct?

ANSWER: Right.

QUESTION:: And during those meetings you told them everything you could possibly think of that was relevant to their investigation in this case, true?

ANSWER: I told them as much as possible in the times that we were together and the questions that they asked.

QUESTION: You didn’t hold back information, correct?

ANSWER: As a matter of fact, each time I came in there was more information because they asked me different questions, so yes, I told them everything that I had knowledge of.

QUESTION: And certainly if something was important as to Mr. McPartland, you made sure to tell them early on in those sessions, true? It was important.

A: I told my lawyer, I told the government, my entire story regarding this case.

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QUESTION: You testified that somewhere around February 2013, you were present when James Burke met with Christopher McPartland. Do you recall testifying to that?

A Yes.

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QUESTION: Do you recall testifying before this jury in February of 2013, Mr. McPartland was vetting cover stories for Mr. Burke. Do you recall that? Yes or no?

A: Yes, he did. Yes.

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QUESTION: Would you agree that’s pretty important accusation you’re making, that Mr. McPartland is vetting false cover stories for Mr. Burke openly in front of you. Would you agree that’s an important allegation in this case?

A It’s a fact.

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QUESTION: You understand that is an important accusation, in your own mind, true?

A: True.

QUESTION: Isn’t it a fact that in all your meetings with the government, at least through November 11, 2019, you never once made that accusation?

A: I don’t recall if that was covered. I remember in prior, coming up to the trial, they asked me specifically about dates and times and I provided that to them.

QUESTION: Do you recall ever making that accusation to the government prior to November 11, 2019. Yes or no?

MS. GATZ: What were the accusations?

QUESTION: The accusations that in February 2013, Mr. McPartland with Mr. Burke and essentially, according to you, vetted cover stories for the Loeb situation?

A: I told the government from the very beginning about McPartland okaying the progression of theories. It was Mr. McPartland who did the progression of theories with Burke, yes, and in front of me, and I told that to the government from the beginning.

QUESTION: So you told that to the government in the beginning. The beginning is December 2015, that’s when you had your initial proffer meetings.

A: I don’t know in the first meetings, there were numerous, but I provided that information to the government.

QUESTION: Certainly before your guilty plea, true?

A: I don’t recall when it was provided to the government. You’d have to check their notes of their interviews which I didn’t have access to.

QUESTION: But that was an important piece of information that you provided to the government according to you early on, correct?

A: Correct.

QUESTION:

Isn’t it a fact, Mr. Hickey, that you testified to a number of important facts in this courtroom that you had never told the Government in any of your interview sessions up to November 11, 2019?

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QUESTION: That is not a fact. Everything I said in this courtroom I’ve had said to the Government.

QUESTION: You’re clear about that in your mind that every significant statement you made in this courtroom concerning Mr. McPartland’s involvement in the conspiracy you testified to, you told the Government in prior interview sessions prior to November 11th, 2019, correct?

MS. GATZ: Objection. That’s a different question, your Honor. Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A: I’ve met with the Government after November 11th in preparation for this trial. Everything I testified to in this courtroom I said to the Government.

QUESTION: My question is: Did you tell the Government everything significant that you testified to in this courtroom in any of your interviews up to November 11th, 2019?

A: I told the Government everything that was asked of me up to November 11th and what was asked of me after November 11th.

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QUESTION: Mr. Hickey, I placed before you what I have marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 34. Do you see that there?

A: Yes.

QUESTION: That is a list of the 17 dates for which we have received interview notes from

the Government. Can you take a look at those dates and tell me if they seem roughly

right to you. It shows 17 meetings or phone conversations.

A: I’ll take your word for it.

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QUESTION: Now, you’ll accept my representation that these are the 17 meetings or conversations for which we have notes?

A: Yes.

QUESTION: So it ends on November 11, 2019, do you see that there?

A: Yes.

QUESTION: About how many times did you meet with the Government after that?

A: For trial prep, three or four.

QUESTION: Were those lengthy meetings?

A: No, not really.

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QUESTION: And you indicated that you personally saw, with your own eyes, Mr. McPartland nodding yes or no when Mr. Burke spun different scenarios that he might make up, true?

A: It could have been as late as it was after Loeb public in early February, and before the special prosecutor, around the time of the special prosecutor, which that was in March. So it was an approximate timeframe.

QUESTION: I’m asking you the approximate timeframe. But it’s your testimony in this

Court that you personally saw with your own eyes Mr. McPartland coaching,

essentially coaching, Chief Burke on how to lie; is that your testimony?

A: Yes.

QUESTION: Would you agree that that is a significant allegation in your own mind as to this trial?

A: Yes.

QUESTION: Isn’t it a fact that in all 17 of the meetings that are reflected on that document, you never once made that allegation?

A. That is not a fact. I spoke to the Government about two separate meetings in Burke’s office with McPartland, one in that timeframe that we’re speaking of right now, and one by the Loeb suppression hearings which was a mock crossexamination that McPartland conducted on Burke in my presence.

QUESTION: My question is simply — and if you can answer it yes or no, please do – isn’t it a fact that you never made the allegation that I just described in any of those meetings with the Government; yes or no?

A: No, that’s not a fact. I talked to the Government about two separate meetings.

QUESTION: I’m asking –

THE COURT: You already answered it. You asked it. This is the second time you asked it and you answered it twice.

QUESTION: Can you tell me at which of these meetings you told the Government that allegation against Mr. McPartland?

A: I told the Government about two separate meetings.

QUESTION: I’m asking you to tell me which of the meetings you made the allegation – I’m referring to February 2013 — the allegation that in February 2013, approximately, Mr. McPartland coached Mr. Burke. Which of the Government meetings did you make that allegation in?

A: I’ve never seen the Government’s notes, so I couldn’t tell you which meeting that was in.

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QUESTION: And isn’t it a fact — by the way, that first meeting was pretty much an all day meeting, true?

A: Which meeting are you referring to?

QUESTION: December 4th.

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QUESTION: Isn’t it a fact that at that meeting you said nothing about Mr. McPartland coaching Mr. Burke’s lies in February, in or about February 2013; isn’t that true?

A: I don’t recall what was said at the first meeting, the second meeting, the 17th meeting. I don’t know what was discussed.

QUESTION: You also testified in this courtroom on direct that Mr. Burke openly admitted in front of Mr. McPartland – I believe your words were — that Burke had beat the hell out of Loeb. Do you recall that?

A: Yes.

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QUESTION: Isn’t it a fact, Mr. Hickey, that in those 17 meetings referenced in these notes, you never once made that accusation to the Government, yes or no?

A: Many times I talked to the Government about Burke openly saying about his beating of Loeb. We talked about it. Burke would always admit it when he was feeling sorry for himself. So, it was openly discussed.

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QUESTION:In the first meeting with the Government did you make that accusation, yes or no?

A: I don’t recall what was said in the first meeting, counselor.

QUESTION: You also testified in this courtroom that it was openly said in front of Mr. McPartland that the goal of what everyone was doing was to keep Burke out of jail; do you remember that?

A: Keep Jimmy out of jail. We talked about it all the time.

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QUESTION: Isn’t it a fact that in all 17 of these meetings reflected on Defendant’s Exhibit 34, you never once said that it was discussed that the purpose of these conversations was to keep Jimmy out of jail? Isn’t it a fact you never said that before in these meetings?

A: I don’t know what was said in those meetings. You would have to go to the Government’s notes for that.

QUESTION: You don’t remember, one way or the other, if you said that before, correct? It’s a yes or no. Do you remember one way or the other?

A: I don’t remember what was said exactly in which meeting.

QUESTION: So we would have to go to the Government’s notes or call an agent to get that information, correct?

A. Correct.

QUESTION: Now, you also testified to this jury that Mr. McPartland said to you expressly about the Oliva wire that it was a pretext for getting revenge against John Oliva, and that they could use the leaks as a pretext for retaliating against him. Do you recall you testified that Mr. McPartland expressly said that to you? expressly said that to you?

A. He said it in a meeting that we were at in the DA’s office, yes.

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QUESTION: Isn’t it a fact that in none of these 17 sessions with the Government did you ever make that accusation, yes or no?

A: Once again, counselor, you have to go to the Government’s notes to see where and when that was discussed.

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QUESTION: But is it your testimony that you said it at least in one of the meetings?

A: Everything I testified in this courtroom I have said at one time or another to the Government, yes.

QUESTION: I’m asking about the 17 meetings, not the ones after this date. Do you understand that?

A: I understand what you’re trying to get me to say. I can say everything I testified in this courtroom I’ve said it one time or another to the Government. I don’t know which was said at what meetings.

QUESTION: In other words, there may have been some things you said in this courtroom that you told the Government after November 11th, 2019, in preparation for your testimony, correct?

A: Correct.

QUESTION: Now, that would have been almost four years after you started cooperating, correct?

A: Correct.

QUESTION: And is it your testimony that four years after your cooperation and after 17 meetings with the Government, you remembered significant new information just prior to this trial, is that what you’re saying?

A: It wasn’t new information, counselor, it was information that I was directly questioned about prior to testifying at this trial.

QUESTION: And, in other words, there was new information — withdrawn. Was there new information that you had never before told them in any of the 17 prior sessions?

A: In preparation for the trial we went through an extensive timeline and the Government asked me specific questions about specific date ranges and times, and I explained to them what was going on at those times. It wasn’t new information. It was the first time that I was asked.

QUESTION: When I say new information, I mean the first time you told the Government about it. Do you understand that?

A: Yes. The first time I was asked is the first time I told.

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QUESTION: Wasn’t it your obligation to be as full and complete with them as you could be?

A: I was full and complete with them as I could be at every meeting and every phone call.

QUESTION: But if we want to know at what meetings any of these were allegedly said by you, you don’t recall. We would have to use another source, correct?

A: Correct.

Subsequently, on re-direct examination, Hickey gave the following testimony:

QUESTION: Now, you had 17-plus meetings with the government, 17 proffers and a bunch of meetings to prepare your trial testimony; is that right?

A: Yes.

QUESTION: Is it fair to say you don’t remember what you said on each occasion but you remember what you said in toto with the government?

A: Yes.

QUESTION: Is it fair to say in trial preparation many more specific questions were asked of you than had been asked during your proffer meetings?

A: Absolutely.